Kia ora tatau
Thankyou all for your input to this (some of the responses I got from you below).
Disappointing outcome, but at least I now know where we stand. Frustrating to know that there is this technology out there that would make us more efficient and we can not use it - never mind I'll get over it.
Mauri ora
Fin
______________________________________________
From: Geoff Cole
Sent: Thursday, 6 November 2008 7:52 a.m.
To: Finlay Buchanan
Subject: RE: Full response GPS Tracking Collars
Fin,
I implied it was not impossible as I didn't know all the facts, and my theory is nothing is impossible as Rachel Hunter said " it may not happen over night, but it will eventually". Technology keeps changes and developing, what's not possible today may well be tomorrow.
The present Garmin Astro DC 30 GPS currently uses frequency in the middle of Land mobile E band to get that changed would take fifteen to twenty years to achieve at least, with only a slight chance of success.
It is not practical especially when there are alternatives.
What I do know to re-arrange VHF radio bands does not happen over night.
A large numbers of people will have move frequency
The financial impact will be several million dollars
That is the size of the problem and by the time you get what you want a better product may be available.
The more practical solution is to see if we can to get the technology to comply to NZ regulations, a 0.03% change in frequency to get them on the right frequency is not great, as well as a reduction in power.
If you want a definitive statement, I do not believe it is worth the effect to try and get a national frequency for Garmin Astro DC 30 GPS dog collar, (it sets a precedent for other products and that won't happen).
Give me a call if you want to.
Cheers
Geoff
PS you may have received previous, it was send by mistake.
_____________________________________________
From: Finlay Buchanan
Sent: Wednesday, 5 November 2008 4:52 p.m.
To: Geoff Cole
Cc: Colin Hopkinson; Karen Vincent; John Gaukrodger; Kim Dawick
Subject: RE: GPS Tracking Collars
Kia ora Geoff
Thanks for this interesting background. I am afraid it doesn't really answer my question.
You say it is not impossible to get the appropriate frequency and suggested that it would need a national body to lobby MED, could not DOC lobby MED? The need for the GPS Dog Tracking gear is for official DOC operations and there is a national DOC need for it.
Yes we could just purchase and use old technology, but it is frustrating to know that there is gear out there that is so much more useful, would make us so much more efficient and we can't use it.
Tracking the dogs from a desk is not an option, besides we are also not allowed to have Google Maps on our computers.
Mauri ora (cheers)
Fin Buchanan
Programme Manager Biodiversity Threats (Peninsula Project)
Hauraki Area Office
cnr Pahau and Kirkwood Streets
PO Box 343
Thames
Phone 07-8679186
VPN 6176
Mobile 027 248 0206
_____________________________________________
From: Geoff Cole
Sent: Wednesday, 5 November 2008 3:27 p.m.
To: Finlay Buchanan
Cc: Colin Hopkinson
Subject: RE: GPS Tracking Collars
Hi Fin,
Welcome to the Global market USA style, where everything is bigger, better and the dollar rules. Yes these are illegal in NZ (and Australia), where those persons selling or using them can have considerable fines imposed upon them. As a public servant, get caught using one, could even become a career limiting move, as both the Department and individual would be held accountable. (That the health warning) is it worth the risk, to go out and just use them, I believe this is not an option. It is important for DoC that, WE MUST BE SEEN TO BE GOOD CORPORATE CITIZENS and support our employer, i.e. The Crown. Knowing they illegal and go out and use them sound s just stupid.
The reality is these items are designed for the USA / North American market where there legalisation allows them to operate in the their Multi Use Radio Service bands, which is similar to the NZ and Australia ISM / General User Radio licensed Bands which allow radio controlled garage door openers, remote controlled models, etc, to operate with out the need of individual licensing. The dog collars units are that sort of device. Historically you could say this is a form of protection for the local electronics market in that the radio frequencies used while similar are unique in every country. Only recently because of the personal computer industry has there been some standardisation in the radio frequencies used for wireless LAN's. In earlier times it meant products may need to be changed locally to comprise to the local administration rules and regulations. This is still the case hence there are several products that if purchased overseas are not compatible in NZ, for example portable telephones, baby minders, remote controller cars, TV's, Japanese FM radio etc. The point is dog collars are not alone, and frankly you can not use them anywhere in NZ safety.
These collars are a known interference problem in Marlborough, but it takes too long to get the authorities on site to investigate and locate the owners of the dogs to prosecute. The frequencies used by the collar, as mentioned have been already allocated to the land mobile R/T service in New Zealand. This was done along time ago, like back in 1960s and is still in use today. Look at the radio spectrum this way, it like a prime piece of real estate in the centre of town. It may currently has a house on it, but you and your mates want it as a bar restaurant. For you to get that bar going you need to acquire the land and get the local authority / council to change zoning for the purpose you want. The Radio spectrum management it is the same these land mobile operator take a pretty dim view of people camping on their frequencies and prevent them from getting access to bands. Plus the government has already approve the use of the radio frequency band. The other problem is these are regional channels and you need to get a national frequency while not expensive, you would have to move the existing users out and still get a approve for change of use. This is not impossible but it does need a national body like the deerstalkers to lobby the MED which Doc could well support.
Concerning the Garmin Astor collars and their situation in New Zealand you've already given one reason why the manufacturer is not keen to adapt them for NZ, i.e. numbers and the procedure he would have to go through. Another reason is they over powered, 2 watts instead of 1/2 watt allowed in NZ, which would made them as effective as a DoC handheld radio, compared to one of our vehicle mobiles. The reduction in coverage maybe come a problem. This actually highlights the real problem, the manufacturer just does not want to support the Australasian market, it is too small and too much trouble for them. NZ has a mechanism for them to be used there, but the supplier need to play by the rules in this case they do not want too. I understand there is also an Australia manufactured of dog control collars which are also illegal in NZ, however as there are other suppliers, it might be better to try and see if one was interested in developing their product for NZ for a smaller return or is some local university / technology company interested.
For this type of device to used in NZ as someone mentioned they need to operate on 160.1 to 160.6 MHz or 40.66 t0 44.7 MHz maybe another option..
I am happy to discuss this with you as a real Rolls Royce GPS solution maybe to put SPOT satellite trackers on every dog and track them via Google maps on you desktop PC.
Regards
Geoff Cole
Telecommunication Support Design Engineer
Telecommunication Support Team
VPN: 8037 DDI: 04 471 3037 Mob: 027 491 0711
FAX: 04 471 3009
Department of Conservation
Head Office
P O Box 10 420 - The Terrace - Wellington - 6143
Level 2, 18 - 32 Manners Street - Wellington - 6011
______________________________________________
From: Finlay Buchanan
Sent: Wednesday, 5 November 2008 12:11 p.m.
To: Colin Hopkinson
Cc: Karen Vincent; John Gaukrodger
Subject: GPS Tracking Collars
Kia ora Colin
We have been investigating the purchase of Tracking collars for our Goat Team's dogs and it appears that the ideal would be the Garmin Astro DC30 GPS tracking collars but..... the radio frequency they operate on is apparrently illegal. I have posted this question (at the botton of this e-mail) on to the L\Animal Pests e-mail list to see what is being done elsewhere in DOC and got quite a number of responses, a sample of which I attach below.
My question to you (being advised by John Stock that you are the person to go to with this query) is would it be possible for the Department to purchase the use of the frequency thus making the units legal??
There are a couple of very compelling reasons why the Department should buy the use of the frequency:
this being a practical one - we (DOC) could legally use this new technology to keep track of dogs being used for conservation purposes (goat, predator, species dogs) as well as the interest being shown in the use of the technology to track pest and protected species
the other being a Community relations one - it would be a serious PR coup if we could be seen to be assisting hunters by enabling them to use the latest technology legally (they are obviously doing it illegally). It may even be possible to get the importers of Garmin equipment to put a surcharge on the Tracking gear to help fund the purchase of the frequency.
another practical one - far too many hunting dogs get lost which then go on to kill native wildlife or domestic stock. This would be another step in helping hunters keep track of and retrieve lost dogs.
Very keen to hear your thoughts
Mauri ora
Fin Buchanan
Programme Manager Biodiversity Threats (Peninsula Project)
Hauraki Area Office
cnr Pahau and Kirkwood Streets
PO Box 343
Thames
Phone 07-8679186
VPN 6176
Mobile 027 248 0206
______________________________________________
From: Daryl Olsen [mailto:daryl@kiwitrack.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 4 November 2008 11:21 a.m.
To: Gareth Hopkins
Subject: RE: GPS Tracking Collars
Hi there,
They are fantastic units to use. The hand units are similar to the map60csx. They however have had a fare share of waterproof problems on the collars. Yes they are illegal. They are transmitting on 151 MHz. this is used on E band land mobile channels. (truck RT’s) it only affects one channel. Garmin have said unless they get an order for 10 000 units they would even start to change them for NZ. So the other way is to buy the use of that channel? Not sure if able to and how much. I’m looking at trying to change frequencies to use for another project.
There are hundreds of the units already here being used by pig hunters and at the moment you can get them with no troubles from the states. Hand unit and one collar is about $500US and $230 US for another collar. Up to 10 collars per unit.
________________________________________________
Hi Fin
Please let me know the outcome.
Regards
Karen Vincent
_________________________________________________
Hi Fin
I look forward to hearing of a way forward on this issue - we've been exploring this option for the past couple of years without a legal way forward. As you are no doubt aware, the ironic thing is that people are selling these products in the NZ. When I approahed an alternative 'potential' supplier he informed me that people selling these units were liable for a 50k and people using them 10k? fines...
Regards Dion
________________________________________________
Hi Fin,
Long time no hear - all's well in Thames? Has Richard Goomes baked you a pavlova yet, if you can get him a swans egg I'm sure he'd oblige.
Was yarning to a pig hunter last week and I wanted to sell him the idea of tracking collars but I've got no idea which ones are the good ones. If you find a solution to the radio freequency problem could you let me know the cost and supplier.... or if there isn't a solution where to get one that is OK to recommend.
thanks
Mike
______________________________________________
Hi Fin
I would be interested in the response you get to this email. We are considering using Judas deer as part of the Secretary Island deer eradication project, and GPS records of animal movement would be really beneficial.
I don’t have much direct experience with GPS collars, other than running one on a deer for a couple of months for an guy from Auck. Uni about 4 or 5 years ago. He had got a technician to make one up.
Graham Nugent from Landcare Research indicated to me the other day that they were considering getting some units made up for them. They are doing mostly pig tracking work at the moment. With recent advances in GPS and electronics I think the components are improving in quality, availability and price.
I’ll check with Graham what they are up to and let you know it there are any options through them.
Stu Cockburn from the electronics lab may be able to give you some advice.
Regards
Dave Crouchley
Ranger Biodiversity (Islands, Deer Control)
Department of Conservation
P.O. Box 29, Te Anau, NZ
phone: (03) 249 0200, fax: (03) 249 0257
DDI: (03) 249 0244, vpn:4844
e-mail:
dcrouchley@doc.govt.nz ________________________________________
Hi Finlay,
Unfortunately I don't have the answer to your question but perhaps you could post your question (and a summary of any answers you get) to the NZ Wildlife Management Forum at
www.wildlifemanagement.net.nz That way you may have solved the issue for the next person that ponders on the question.
Cheers,
Dave Houston
__________________________________
Hi Fin,
Tash and I have been using the Astro 220 with the DC-20 transmitter on Breeze for almost a year. The DC-30 looks a vast improvement.
On the frequency thing – is it illegal or is the tranmsitting frequency band-width not registered to be used for this purpose?
I spoke to a GPS guy before purchasing it; his advice was if it was not used in a built up area it would not interfere. The DC-20 operates in the 151.82 – 154.60MHz range - who is the registered user of this band-width?, the biggest impact is its inference on the DoC used 160.12-161.12 MHz transmitters!!
Anyways I guess that being non-DoC it is “easier” for me to fly under the radar with its use – but they are brilliant (except for 3-4 day battery life in unit which is rechargeable only) and never run Breeze without it. Try finding a hard setting setter in beech regen!!
Hope all is well.
From: Finlay Buchanan
Sent: Tuesday, 4 November 2008 9:52 a.m.
To: L\Animal Pests; Stuart Cockburn
Cc: Kim Dawick
Subject: GPS Tracking Collars
Kia ora tatau
We have been investigating the purchase of Tracking collars for our Goat Team's dogs and it appears that the ideal would be the Garmin Astro DC30 GPS tracking collars but..... the radio frequency they operate on is apparrently illegal.
Before discarding this idea I am trying to find out if anyone else out there doing goat work has been down this road already and what were your outcomes? If everyone (or at least a number of us) have reached the same conclusions as we have (they would be ideal, but we can't use them) can we not collectively find a way around the radio frequency problem?
Looking forward to hear your ideas.
Mauri ora
Fin Buchanan
Programme Manager Biodiversity Threats (Peninsula Project)
Hauraki Area Office
cnr Pahau and Kirkwood Streets
PO Box 343
Thames
Phone 07-8679186
VPN 6176
Mobile 027 248 0206
