Private breeding for release

[Steptoe]

Got an idea...well had it about 6 or 7 yrs ago.
There are a lot of people who under DoC supervision would be happy as a hobby to breed endangered birds in their backyards up and down the country... there is already a loose network of kakariki breeders and a lot more interested since I appeared on a recent TV program.
If this concept combined with with 1080 drops ...with flocks ready to be re introduced en mass...that would certainly remove a lot of the emotional and hypocritical arguments against 1080.
It would also be another world 1st, feather in the cap for DoC and with very little expense.
I have at this point in time have 7 pairs, 2 or 3 with chicks, another 20 odd eggs being sat on, and several more pairs I cant breed off this season because have run out of flights...and dint have the time to add to the current 13 flights.

Kakariki would be the idea 'pilot ' species to start with..trial

[Dave Houston]

I'm not sure if releasing birds after a 1080 drop would solve anything.  Opponents of the toxin/method would say that the release is necessary because the operation killed all the birds already there.

And, aside from parakeets, what species would you consider suitable for breeding/release?  I'm struggling to think of any species that are either needed or would be suitable for backyard breeding.  Kakariki (with the exception of orange-fronted) are not endangered and the best thing we can do to enhance populations is to control predators (mustelids and rodents) so that they can successfully breed in the wild.

Where species don't exist in an area, wild-wild translocations are the preferred method of the day, having higher survival/success than release of captive-bred birds.

[Steptoe]

I'm not sure if releasing birds after a 1080 drop would solve anything.  Opponents of the toxin/method would say that the release is necessary because the operation killed all the birds already there.

Thats a good piont.....
So it would have to depend on how it was marketed....
Before 1060  populations often tend to be low, so why not rebuild, and reintroduce birds that where not there , but orginally where.

And, aside from parakeets, what species would you consider suitable for breeding/release?  I'm struggling to think of any species that are either needed or would be suitable for backyard breeding.

Bird breeders breed a huge vairity of exortic birds, finches to macaws....Easy to breed thru to extremely difficult......But when it comes to NZ native birds, kakariki are about all that has been allowed....
Yes there have been underground breeding of other species, rather than learning from these exceriances DoC has a closed policy of just closing down.
other species..weka , morpork, tui, kingfisher, the list could be endless.
If these species where avalible off shore, they would be breeding like kakariki, as they breed other exortic species...so why not do so in NZ?

There is something wrong wit the coding of the rely box..one cant see what is being typed..the number of charactors set in the db or file needs to be increased.....Im now typing blind

[Steptoe]

Kakariki (with the exception of orange-fronted) are not endangered and the best thing we can do to enhance populations is to control predators (mustelids and rodents) so that they can successfully breed in the wild

The orange kakariki is where it is now because action was not taken 20/30 yrs ago
Yes there are isolated patches around NZ that have kakariki, where as orginally they where everywhere, including in towns like parrots are in Aussie.
Translocation is very expensive, and has a large propotion of deaths.
I know of a couple of populations that are just surviving with fermin around and no control....and have been slowly decreasing from very common in the 1920s thru to 1950s...now there is a hand ful.
Due to budget restrants on policing kakariki and a policy of 'granfathering' of hybrids...much of our captive population is not suitasble for release...My opinion...hybrids in capitivity need to be destroyed period.
Many of the popluations that are popping up are illegal releases of unsuitable excess stock.
I covered this whole subject in submissions a year ago...The Minister called for the issue of kakariki to be looked into back in 2002 or 2003, it was not till about a yr ago anything was followed up.

sry posting box screwed up

[Steptoe]

Where species don't exist in an area, wild-wild translocations are the preferred method of the day, having higher survival/success than release of captive-bred birds.

Where is there any trials or reseach done on this subject?
Luis Ortiz-Catedral wanted to follow up on this using private breeders.....along side is current translocation reasearch......got turned down.
We even built up our stocks, and 12 of birds had been DNA tested for deasee etc. by DoC at Massey..100% clear.....we eventually had to destory the stock due to lack of holding capasty and new breeding seasons.
Instead of destroying the could have been reased in a city bbush reserve, or Albert park....If they didnt survive at least some sort of result , knowledge could have been gained, rather than a total wastage of the resource.

There are many exoric species , escapees from captive stock that have established in the wild, what is so unique about NZ species that makes them unable to do so?

http://www.kakariki.net/ftopict-557.html
http://www.kakariki.net/ftopicp-1990.html#1990

[Steptoe]

Kakariki (with the exception of orange-fronted) are not endangered

lets wait till they are, like the orange, and then spend a fortune on another recovery program...
And are they really not endangered..maybe not as much as a lot of other species.....but its been quite a few decades..if ever accruate counts have been done...the 'classification' is little more than a gesstimate.
When was the last time flocks have been seen the length of the country as descibed by Buller and others.
Another aspect of kakariki, they where unique in the numbers of natural mutations in flocks......these no longer exist in NZ, but take out top Show prizes in EU competions, resently and Israil a couple yrs ago... we need to get this genetic pool back in NZ.
But what would private breeders know after decades of breeding, experimemting in housing , diets. They dont have a fortune in their back pockets and a line of degrees after their names....just commonsence and experiance.

[Dave Houston]

I'm not saying that captive breeding doesn't work, what I am saying is that it is in many cases unnecessary, and I don't see the point in releasing a bunch of birds into a environment that can't support them.

Captive breeding is currently being used in the recovery of some NZ endemic species - shore plover and black stilt are two I can think of, both of which I would think would be difficult for the backyard breeder to cope with.

[Steptoe]

Yep I think shore birds could be a problem for the private backyard breeder lol

and I don't see the point in releasing a bunch of birds into a environment that can't support them.

So what would be better,
not even try and dig a hole in the rose garden and snip their heads off
Or release into Albert park or  local bush reserve, or conservation projects that dont have them....for free.

What would happen if Campbell or Closeup happened to twigg to what is currently happening to many NZ animal species?

DoC has a huge opportunty to capitalise on a free resource....and again be a leader in World species conservation...

We can breed birds (pheasant)for sport..shooting , release with little or no suprivision...why not natives like weka?

And why does it take decades before such a proposal could even be considered...If ever..It never was with the orange kakariki and huge private stocks in the Sth Island where simply destroyed, and we see where they are now and the cost to recover.

There are a lot of things happened over the last 20 odd yrs, ..underground stuff...successful stuff, methods of breeding and realese on long term basis that can be used sucessfully today...The odd thing, one can talk to DoC people who work in the frield, they agree....privately...but hit a wall when they try to follow up with the desk jockeys upstairs.

[Dave Houston]

I'm not sure what need you're trying to satisfy here - the need to restore kakariki to the ecosystem or the need of the backyard breeder to deal with their overabundance of kakariki. 

Kakariki are able to naturally spread to suitable sites from which predators are controlled or absent - for instance they have just restablished themselves on Motutapu (see links below), so there seems to be little need for captive-reared birds and more of a need for more pest control/eradications.

In this world of supply and demand, if there is no demand then you stop making the product.  None of the other species you have mentioned are threatened either - so why breed them?

Kakariki on Motutapu

Richard Griffiths
http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio (scroll down to 08.29am)
http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/stories/2009/12/04/1245d914f8fe
 
Luis Ortiz-Catedral
http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/weekondemand.asp?menu=2&menuitem=3 (Go to Dec 4, 6am file, about 7 mins in)
http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/newsdetail1.asp?storyID=167436
 

[Steptoe]

I'm not sure what need you're trying to satisfy here - the need to restore kakariki to the ecosystem or the need of the backyard breeder to deal with their overabundance of kakariki.

Would it not be advantagious to take advantage of a free source?
Combine both?
Unless DoC has an unlimitted budget to capiture and transport , relocate around the country, and the attrition rate doing so is rather high....and surely the more released in 1 batch  the better....and also enable far more releases.
And where do most of the Zoos, Hamilton and Auckland source their kakariki from?....its not by going thru the bureaucratic nightmare sourcing from the wild.

In this world of supply and demand, if there is no demand then you stop making the product.  None of the other species you have mentioned are threatened either - so why breed them?

There is a demand, inspite of DoC.....So what you are saying is that its ok anywhere else in the world to keep NZ natives as pets but we cant and should not do so in NZ...So stick to budgies and carnnies...The only people who can enjoy NZ kakariki (as example) are those who are fit enough and can afford to travel to see them.
Weka have a huge  commerical potentual, eggs and meat.

It is a popular belf that its vermin that causes kakariki to not survive in certain areas, yes in some respects that is true...The biggest things that caused their downfall as one of our most common species is the destruction of their enviroment (even then released i sufficent numbers they will still reestablish)and mass exterminiation by shotgun
Im not thinking small time releases of 20 or 30 birds at a time, but 100 / 150/200 into bush reservers within city limits....Get them back into urban backyards as they once where...just like Australian cities like Adelade.
Maybe the concept is to ambios to grasp, or  premature while we are dealing in small scale reintroductions on Islands...Or maybe Im impatent and would like the spread from  current reintroduction into towns and cities in my or my childrens life time...yet the structure is in place to start doing it now....at a fraction of the price  of the current limited translocations.

I wish I could see what Im typying...in the data base tables you will find an entry, to fix the side scroll bar

[Peterlimburg]

I agree with Steptoe, way catch wild birds and release them on an Island where 80% go to die.
Way destroying the wild natural gene pool, if there is a easyer way to reintroduce native birds by private breeding programs under supervision of the DOC. I'm a private breeder from Europe and very sad and angry how they wil safe and rescue a species . World wide there are breeding programs in zoos and by private people who cares about the animals. Even here where I live is a zoo which has a kiwi breeding program. Why are they so stupid and don't listening or trying it.  5% of the cost  would be enough to try to breed and reintroduce the kakariki in releasing programs in the wild.
But what is a releasing program ??

Make a big avary in or near a forrest compleet with bushes and trees, put there 50 to 100 kaka's in from selected breeders and feed them for a while with the local seeds, greens , and berries, so they can learn and locate the area, the forrest with his plants and insects. After a few weeks / months  they are ready to go, to make a door or window open from the avary .
Some wil go and some wil stay, but others wil go and for a while and return. That's is the clue and the big mistake which is made by the DOC's even by Luis Catedral.
This system can be used for the red, yellows and orange kaka.

Note: every wood, bush, region has his own specific flora and fauna. Which his own food supllys. They must learn to us it.
If i rip You out of the city a put you in a bush/jungle you will also die, even if there is a lot of food, you don't  recognize it as food. 

All released birds can be ringed and some species can hold a transducer to be followed and study them.
And if some guys are smart they will intermediate  destroying rats and opossums in the neighbourhood .

Steps, this is my opinion for releasing.........maybe you can work it out for the Doc or Luis Catedral.

Greetings Peter

http://kakarikiwereld.weebly.com/

[Steptoe]

Peter as  mentioned above there have been over the last decade or so accidental and unaurthised 'experiments'  ...exactlty as you describe.

And yes such informal discussions with Luis and other DoC people did take place with well before he got any permissions from DoC on his research.

And by coincidence, 10 mins ago a person who was a NZ Wildlife Servive Dept, Internal Affairs, Volunteer inspector for capitive kakariki in the 70s and 80s....(BEFORE DoC) has just left here.....
I never knew such a thing ever existed, similar basis to our Vounteer Fisheries inspectors...And hes left me all his old documentation on permts, breeder numbers, number of kakariki etc....I still have to read through it all.
So it seems that my submissions on capitive kakarki, and propasals along these lines is nothing new...
Some of these records go back to 1958, It was not till around 1972 permits where required with over a 1000 permit holders in 1976...and aparently releasing into the wild was not a problem...Stats on yellows /reds and even Hybrids..
And people could actually keep kakariki as house parrots in suitabliy sized cages, just as they are kept today around the rest of the world.
He was shocked to find out that just to take a kakariki to show to local school kids for a few hours now needs a special permit
He is very suprised about kakariki being over seas on such a huge scale. the mutaions....He is now well into his 80s, fit as, and doesnt use computors or internet. He came across me accidently from that TV program a few months back.

[Peterlimburg]

  Now i'm thinking something that ......................
My words are censored.
Do you know the story of david and goliath, maybe somewhere in the future, you can only see a fluffy    prepared native kakariki in a museum.     With the text-  eradicated by human stupidity.  Also one of thousands species.

Greetings Charles Darwin.

I hope the translation and especially the message is clear.

[gecko]

As DOC is so drastically underfunded I feel it would be irresponsible of them to spend funds on restablishing kakariki on the mainland when there is so much work to be done with pest control.  Conservation in NZ IS  pest control .  However we see growing number of community groups managing there own reserves and doing groundbreaking work in pest contol with docs blessing.  I see native species management just another part of that.  I know there are reserves that could probably support Kakariki if they were available to them.   If after a release if it was found they didn't do so well, we would have learnt something. whats been lost?  In the 5 years I have been doing pest control we have discovered things DOC hasn't discovered in 20 years, because we have the people, time and money!!

[pablo]

Dear gents,

With the text-  eradicated by human stupidity.  Also one of thousands species.

Peter, words of wisdom.

My name is Pablo, I'm an amateur parakeet breeder from Spain. I have been keeping/breeding kakariki for 4 years now, only red fronted since yellow fronted are fairly difficult to find here. But indeed I would like to keep them as well.
For me it's a fascinating bird, and it makes me sad that NZers don't appreciate what they have at home.

Even sadder for me it's that a country like NZ, of which I thought had enormously high standards in regards of ecology, wildlife conservation, etc... is making naive mistakes.

I'm not sure what need you're trying to satisfy here - the need to restore kakariki to the ecosystem or the need of the backyard breeder to deal with their overabundance of kakariki.

Dave, please don't consider this an attack, but a couple of facts about this.
First of all dealing with overabundance of kakariki is very easy. Open the aviary door and "voilez". Problem solved. That's what most people does when they want to deal with overabundance of a given animal, be it a dog, cat, bird, etc...

Then... I don't know how is the market like in NZ, but I can assure you if Steptoe had some commercial interest of some sort, he could keep 2-3 pairs of kakariki for display and enjoyment, breed them once every 2-3 years to keep a few youngsters and swap for new blood, and use his aviaries to breed commercially interesting species.

So maybe if he makes a proposal to breed other native species is because he is genuinely worried.

Some species might not be critically endangered, but... why wait until it's too late. I think then this is the perfect moment to start a captive-breeding program of some species.
And on the other side I think it's a pity aviculturists can't enjoy their own local species.


About reintroduction of kakariki, Peter probably has a point about adapting a flock of birds before actually releasing them. Very good idea about opening the door, at least we should try.
Placing seed-fruit feeders strategically will help also, so the transition is smoother.

Gecko, nice point on conservation and pest control.
I can't help say if a release of captive bred stock would work in the mainland or not, because all I saw of NZ are pictures.
Maybe I can release a flock of 20 in my neighborhood in Spain and watch their progress.
(now this was a JOKE) 


On the other side I disagree with Steps about bringing any stock from Europe unless the origin is properly researched, and you'll find little help on this.
It's an inexpensive bird and it's bred plentifully. Who cares?
If it were hyacinth macaws or black cockatoos, then I'd say go ahead and research. Kakariki is stupid.

Even people at LoroParque has not much interest in informing etc...
I have invited them several times to drop by www.kakariki.net and share their opinions/views or simply write an article if possible, etc...
Nothing.
And red fronts are CITES I, and even in Europe the situation is very tight due to people breeding hybrids carelessly.
If an institution like LoroParque got hands on with this a little bit a lot of Euro breeders would improve their practices, etc...

And well... enough of criticism 

Dave, even if we might have a different point of view on kakariki, nevetheless my sincerest congratulations for opening up a forum like this and trying to inform people and get involved with conservation and management of native wildlife.


Kind regards,

Pablo